Today is the day to talk to an old friend.
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Today I chat with a woman who wrote a fascinating book about her experiences living the life of a man: that included a new voice, a new walk, "a new, shorter haircut; a pair of rectangular eyeglasses; a fake five o'clock shadow; a prosthetic penis; some preppy clothes." In addition to writing Self-Made Man, she has also contributed to The New York Times, The New Republic, The New York Post, The Village Voice and The Washington Post, and she has appeared on numerous radio and television talk shows. Yes, I bit that last portion off from her website.
The Norah Vincent Interview: Just Under Twenty Questions
What was the most difficult part of passing yourself off
as a man? The walk? The voice?
The attitude was probably the hardest part. By attitude I mean, in part,
body language-e.g. remembering not to speak so much with my hands-word choice,
expressiveness. I had to reign myself in on all counts and be as controlled
and terse as possible, and because I'm generally a very expressive and voluble
person I found that hardest to do.
What were some of the biggest surprises? (I thought it was interesting
that Stephen Colbert was asking you this but also interrupting you, so I never
got to hear you answer in full.)
I thought that this book was going to be about and for men and women,
a look primarily at relations between the sexes-which it definitely is-but
it turned out also to be about men's relationships to each other. One of the
biggest surprises for me was learning how much men need each other. They need
each other's companionship, sympathy, and mentorship. Yet they are so often
denied the male-to-male intimacy they crave because they are socialized to
hide need and weakness and sympathy and emotional expression, most of all
in the presence of other males. Once they've hidden or repressed those abilities
long enough, they lose touch with the skills necessary for the kinds of close
encounters that seem to come so easily to most women. So when it comes to
communicating intimately with each other in what can often be emotionally
charged terms, they're stymied thoroughly, because they're two people trying
to have a conversation for which neither possesses the vocabulary.
Does your view of a strip club differ from your male perspective than
from your female?
My perspective was always female. That was inescapable. But as a woman who
is sexually attracted to other women, I didn't find it any easier to stomach
the strip club atmosphere. Going to the clubs dressed as a man may have made
it a bit worse than it might have been had I gone as a woman, mostly because
the strippers see men at their worst and, as a result, I think have a far
greater disrespect for them than they do for other women. As a guy, they treat
you like some kind of dumb animal with a wallet attached, and I suppose that's
probably a fairly accurate description of some of the guys I met in those
places.
Do you feel that men and women are receiving the book similarly, or does
one prefer the book over the other?
Both men and women seem to be connecting to it, which is what I had hoped
for, but for different reasons. Guys are often seeing it as a vindication
or a welcome series of insights. Once guy told me recently: "You just
explained me to myself better than I could ever explain myself to someone
else." Women, on the other hand, are more interested in the fly on the
wall experience of it all, and how they can use the information about men's
inner lives. They tend to ask me and themselves: What can this teach me about
men that I don't know? How could this help me in my relationship or on dates?
Should I be more or less threatened by my boyfriend going to a strip club?
How many times did somebody figure out that you were in disguise? What
did you do in those cases?
Nobody figured it out, or if they did they never said anything. Everyone
I revealed myself to was really surprised. Some even took a good deal of convincing.
There was only one exception to that. One was the monk called Brother Vergil.
After I'd told him that there was something about me that I hadn't told him,
and after he'd wrongly guessed that it was that I wasn't Catholic, I finally
said: "Look closely at me." Even then he said "What? I see
a guy with graying hair." Finally I said: "I'm not what I appear
to be," and after a few moments thought he finally said, "You're
a woman?"
Having written a nonfiction book, was there a moment during the James
Frey fray where your publishers/editors wanted to double check all your facts,
or did that not touch you?
They never asked to check my facts. But then there was never a need to. There
were witnesses at every stage, and they've heard from many of them. For example,
they've met my bowling buddies and seen them interviewed on TV about the experience.
Ditto the guy who ran the men's therapy group. Recently I got a letter from
one of the monks which I forwarded to my editor. He said: "In your short
time in the monastery, you managed to piece together some rather poignant
and accurate insights into the various monks. I found the chapter to be very
sympathetic and balanced." He went on to say that it might be difficult
for some of the other monks to read it because it's hard to look in a mirror.
You don't get much better vetting than that.
You've been on a lot of talk shows. Which of the following are exactly
the way they seem on air, and which were surprising? Bill Maher, Geraldo Rivera,
Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh.
All of them are exactly as unpleasant in person as they are on the air, with
the sole exception of Rush Limbaugh, who actually apologized to me once for
getting something wrong about one of my articles, and was quite courteous
about the whole thing. Stephen Colbert was the big surprise, obviously. On
his show he plays, as he says, a "professional idiot," but he's
sharp as hell and a complete sweetheart in person. Very generous and unassuming.
If you had a girlfriend who was attracted to Ned, would you advise her
or discourage her from dating him?
I'd say she could do better. For one thing, with Sloppy Joe in tow, he can't
keep it up.
Do you have male family members? Did your experience as Ned make you see
them in a new light?
Yes. I have two older brothers and, of course, my dad. And yes I do see them
differently. I think we actually connect better than we used to, especially
over football games.
How come drag kings are so less prevalent in the media than drag queens?
Good question. I have no idea.
Have you changed your behavior since the experiment (i.e. become less
passive in conversation), or if you have, have you maintained your change?
I have changed. But mostly I'd say I'm more feminine than I used to be, or
I indulge and enjoy me femininity far more than I used to. I still do a lot
of apologizing for myself, and in that sense I've mostly reverted to form.
Still, now and again, Ned whispers in my ear and says "C'mon show me
your balls. Get it done." And usually I do.
Do you think being a lesbian had much impact on your prior knowledge or
bias on what life as a man was like? Or is a woman's perspective a woman's
perspective?
I think being a lesbian allowed me to fake male heterosexuality much more
effectively, especially when it came to ogling chicks with the guys, or dating,
but in general I think that a woman's perspective is a woman's perspective.
Did you get the feeling at any time that women seem to ignore or perpetuate
the gender gap? I'm specifically thinking of my female friends who play emotional
games with men, when life would just be much easier if they took things at
face value and tried not to interpret everything so much (thus perpetuating
the stereotype of women being over-emotional, sensitive or conniving).
We chicks do tend to overanalyze everything and take everything personally,
and I'm definitely guilty of this. And we do play a lot of emotional games.
Give me an outright jerk any day over some smiling witch who's stabbing me
under the table. I wish we could learn to do a lot less of all this typically
female posturing, and maybe we will some day. I think after being Ned that
I'm better than I used to be, but it's a hard habit to break. As for most
women, when you haven't seen it from the other side-that is, from a man's
point of view-you don't realize how irritating or downright enraging it can
be. I think most of us don't even know that we're doing it, let alone have
any idea what effect it's having on men.
How was shopping for man's clothing? How did you decide Ned would dress?
(I always find shopping in the men's department incredibly dull: everything
looks the same.)
Everything is kind of the same in men's clothing, which makes life a hell
of a lot easier when you don't have time or can't be bothered to get creative.
Plus men's clothes tend to be a lot cheaper and better made, especially men's
shoes. I dressed Ned very conservatively, following the safe preppy, Hilfiger
type trends. I guess in that sense he was your typical teenager, no sense
of self yet, and no willingness to take risks or be found out.
I noticed your thoughts on how men interact with each other on the sidewalk
than they do with women and it made me think about something I've been noticing
I do lately as a woman: when people (men or women) are walking abreast on
the sidewalk, I would typically step to the side but more and more I get annoyed
and just keep walking on my space on the sidewalk, bumping them if I have
to. Do you think men would register a bump or a stare down or an annoyed "excuse
me" in different ways, or would they not notice in the end what was going
on anyway?
I find that men tend to be a lot less accommodating on the sidewalk. They
often walk in a straight line and tend not to veer. However, you'd be more
likely to get yourself into trouble as a guy if you went around bumping into
a lot of other guys without an "excuse me." As a woman, you might
get a stare or even a comment, but you wouldn't get a physical confrontation,
or an invitation to one, which you'd be more likely to get as a guy.
Are women approaching you more now for advice on men?
A lot of female interviewers have asked me for relationship and dating advice.
I guess I'll have to wait and see if that trend continues in the general female
population.
What's your next project?
Top secret. It will definitely be another immersion project, and it's probably
going to pick up from where this one left off, but not in any way you might
expect.
How does it feel to be the 140th person interviewed for Zulkey.com?
I'm honored, of course. Should I be?
More interviews here!