April
2,
2004
permanent
link
Today is the day to cover up the smell.
You need spiritual help? Ask the BYT (he's weighing in with his answers on Monday, so get your questions about God in now!) You need any other help? Ask me.
Speaking of God, I know that you Chicago Zulkey.com readers have the best of intentions, but when was the last time you did something to help your fellow man? Oh, that recently? Well, regardless, you deserve a reward for your charity. My friend and fellow Hoya Sarah Walsh will be participating in a 100-mile Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation Ride to help find a cure. Tonight, she will be having a fundraiser at McGee's from 6-9p.m. $25 buys support for her ride and all the drinks you can quaff. If you can't come, read about her plan and drop her a line if you want to give her some help.
Anyway. Believe it or not, I have an interview to share with you today! A master of the essay, his book Snobbery: The American Version was on the New York Times bestseller list. He is a teacher in the creative writing program at Northwestern University (where he taught at least two other Zulkey.com interviewees) and is a contributor to Commentary, The New Yorker, Harper's, New Republic, New York Review of Books and The National Standard. His story collection, The Goldin Boys, won the title of "Notable Book of the Year" from the New York Times Review of Books in 1992. He is also some combination of the qualities of fabulousness, smallness and Jewishness.
The Joseph Epstein Interview: Just About Twenty Questions
One of your trademarks is the perfectly dropped relevant quotation, often from savants and philosophers like Mencken, Santayana. How do you keep track of quotes you think are or will prove to be gems? Index cards? What's the filing system like?
I don’t think of myself as a very political character. I did have an
anti-left phrase during the late sixties and early 1970s, because I thought
the people on the left in universities did not mean them any good. I still
continue to think the 1960s a bad time for the country, in many ways. I
think capitalism the best of all bad economic systems. I tend to be a
traditionalist in culture. In
the eyes of many people, I realize, these things would make me a
conservative. But I find that, as with my great beauty and astonishing
athletic prowess, I could I can live with it.
You have written books entitled Ambition, Snobbery
and Envy. Which of those traits do you deplore the most?
Which are you most guilty of?
I don’t deplore ambition at all, unless it is empty or vicious ambition.
Such envy as I’ve known in my lifetime has much decreased. I’m
still capable of amazingly snobbish thoughts, but, I hope, thoughts only. As
snobs go, I’m a secret or Walter Mitty kind of snob – which is to say I
never, if I can help it, act on my pathetic little snobberies.
Envy is
part of a series on the seven deadly sins. Do you think envy deserves to be
counted as a deadly sin or is it just part of the human condition?
As a secular person, I’m not sure I think any of the sins are truly
deadly. But they are a great pain in the neck to those who are in thrall to
any of them. Of these sins, I do think Envy and Pride come closest to being
part of the human condition. Lust may also qualify, but the license on lust
runs out at a certain age – not, of course, that I’ve anywhere near
close to reaching that age.
In contrast, according to your bio on Houghton
Mifflin Books’ site, you are currently working on a book on friendship.
What are some of the facets of friendship that have piqued you the most as
you write?
I’m knee deep in the Big Muddy of this book, whose subject I find
immensely complex. The first thing I would note about it, though, is that
friendship is an ideal, and, as with most ideals, reality frequently
doesn’t live up to it. We all have perfect friends in mind, but most of us
don’t always ask if we qualify as such a friend ourselves.
Have there been any topics that you tried to tackle, unsuccessfully? Why
have they eluded you?
I’ve written stories that don’t come off. I’ve been trying to write a
story about a man who attempts to leave a woman, his wife, because she is
genuinely too good, and he finds living with so truly virtuous a person gets
on his nerves. But thus far I don’t think it a successful story.
In your two books of short stories, The
Goldin Boys and Fabulous Small
Jews, Chicago and its environs play a major role. How important is
it to incorporate setting in your stories and how do you think it expands
the understanding or empathy of your readers?
I think the Chicago setting has been very important to my stories. With the
exception of the few years that I lived in New York, and a few more in the
Army, and then in Little Rock, Arkansas, the remainder of my life has been
lived here. When I see someone driving away, in my mind he is always driving
down a Chicago street or eating in a Chicago restaurant or confronting a
Chicago wise-guy.
Do you think the Chicago setting can be somewhat exclusionary for
out-of-towners? It’s not as universal, for instance, as New York or
London.
Thus far it hasn’t been a complaint I’ve heard from readers. Some
excellent writers, after all, have used Chicago as their setting: Theodore
Dreiser, James T. Farrell, Saul Bellow, to name just three. I also happen to
believe there is a certain literary magic in Chicago. Name two Chicago
streets – Kedzie and Lawrence, Devon and
Western, 71st and
Jeffrey – even those who’ve never been in Chicago seem to get a rough
sense of them, Just as people who’ve never been to London or Paris have no
trouble with Dickens or Balzac’s naming of streets and places.
You’ve discussed how snobbery doesn’t really work in Chicago. Do you
think this is one of the reasons why Chicago is known as The Second City, or
do you think it is one of the city’s strengths?
I think one of the strengths of
Chicago is that the more interesting people in this city are not overly
impressed by culture. They pride themselves instead on their grasp of
reality and on being unconnable. (Whether they have this grasp and cannot be
conned is another question.) In New York, I could probably have a fairly full
literary-social life – lots of dinner parties, readings, and the rest of
it – but here I am always surprised (and not a little pleased) to come up
someone who knows about me through my writing. It is better for my
character, and for my scribbling, not to be well known.
There was a somewhat depressing feature on NPR here
recently called “Should I stay or should I
go,” debating whether local
artists ought to strike out to New York or LA in order to further their
careers, or whether they can make it big here. It was surprising to me that
even the writers felt that you couldn’t really make something of yourself
in Chicago, whereas I thought you could write anywhere,
unlike being a film actor. Do you agree?
I suppose it depends on what kind of writing one does. What Chicago
doesn’t have that New York has is what might be called a literary
infrastructure: lots of magazine and publishing and culture-institution jobs
to offer young (and sometimes not-so-young) writers who cannot live off
their scribbling.
Do you have any favorite artists who continue to create in their home
town, like John Waters in Baltimore, for instance?
I’m ashamed to say that I’ve not hitherto heard of John Waters. No, I
don’t have any such artists. But what has long surprised me is that
we don’t have lots of good novels and stories written with Cleveland, St.
Louis, St. Paul, and other major cities as a background.
Speaking of Chicago, you’ve made your home in my home town, Evanston,
for a while. For people who aren’t familiar with the town, how does it
differ, in your opinion, from what the popular image of a ‘suburb’ or
‘college town’ is?
Northwestern doesn’t, it seems to me, have much effect on Evanston, which
is a town of more than 80,000 people and very widely spread out. Most people
in Evanston, as you know, are ticked that Northwestern University long ago
made a deal with the town not to pay taxes, which makes things lots more
expensive for the rest of us.
You teach at Northwestern but attended the
University of Chicago. For
those college applicants, what are some major differences between the two
schools?
The University of Chicago is still, for undergraduates at least, the better
school, the more serious, the one with more character (because of its
seriousness). What Northwestern chiefly has is a continuing influx of good
kids who come to school here, a number of whom showed up in my courses.
You’ve defined yourself as ‘bookish’ on
several occasions. What exactly do you think it means?
I use it to mean that books have long been a central part of my life. That I
consider reading not a hobby or work-connected, but a form of experience, of
learning about the world, in its own right. If I had a choice between not
reading and not eating (being
fed, presumably, through a tube), I should choose the latter, though I hope
to get off the planet without ever having to make such a choice.
You say in an interview with Robert
Birnbaum, “Well, I've never written
a novel. But I don't think I need to write a novel.” Have you ever
attempted to write one? Do you think some people just have an easier time
with short form or anyone can write a novel, it’s just up to the time they
put in?
I’ve not yet found a subject that felt
to me novel-worthy. I also happen to have a weakness for longish,
family chronicle novels. (An example of a fine one I read last year is
Joseph Roth’s The Radetsky March.)
A great many 226 to 258 page novels I find are really short stories with
helium added.
What’s the difference between an essay and
creative nonfiction, if there is one?
I’m not sure I know. I do know, though, that I think the phrase
“creative nonfiction” is not a word that absorbs a lot of truthfulness.
The word “creative” itself is always accompanied by too much
self-congratulation.
Why did you choose “Aristides” as your moniker
when contributing to American
Scholar?
Because I thought it would be amusing. I first came across the reference
to Aristides the Just (he was an Athenian
leader) in Plutarch, who reports that some Athenians thought he was
ostracized (which he eventually was) because people grew tired of always
hearing from him referred to as the Just. I was fired from the American
Scholar for reasons of political correctness, which I prefer to think of
as because I, too, was too
Just.
How much do your editors influence the finished work?
In my book-length work, very little. But I have had some very intelligent
(and thereby useful) editing over the years. I’ve also had some
fact-checkers who have saved me from huge embarrassment. I’m someone who
is pleased to get all the help available to him.
For those unfamiliar with the story from your essays, how did you come to
be Chicago’s city tennis champion?
I have to deflate my reputation in the realms of sports, ballroom dancing,
or romance, but I was merely a city public high-school doubles champion at a
time when the best junior players lived in the suburbs. But I hope you
won’t tell anyone about this.